I agree that there's a lot of use for Linux in the lives of csc/bio/ch etc. students, but I'd be surprised if a simple enumeration of it's pros/cons compared to other operating systems would be sufficient to bring anybody on board. I first got into Linux because my dad's laptop had a GTA clone that I wanted to play. Show someone the cube and watch their eyes light up as they see the "shinyz". To say that an appreciation for the power of the command line is one of the larger motivations for trying Linux does a disservice to the variety of users and users' needs Linux caters to. People will try a new OS in three situations:

1. They are forced to (by work, school, etc.)
2. It solves an immediate problem (e.g., Linux often makes it easier to do the things you suggested)
   
3. It has a feature they find interesting and compelling (that could be shiny cool graphical effects, a good environment for learning to program, or just not crashing frequently)

It's not all about how well it gets a particular job done- the reason Apple has been very successful as of late is not because average users tout how much more productive they are with OS X than Windows, but in large part is because it's more fun . I don't think I'm insulting users' intelligence when I say that cool graphical effects are enticing. Most everyone wants their computer too look cool (well, except CLI spvensko ;) ) and it's about as good a bait for new users as you could ask for: the kind that makes people approach YOU and ask "hey, what is that cool looking thing on your screen?"

-Brian

On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 7:11 PM, Jay Goel < jpgoel@ncsu.[redacted] > wrote:

To answer Jack's question, this is the first book I used (read from chapter 1, etc) to really get a feel for Linux, how file perms worked, different sysadmin tasks, etc. Essential System Administration. http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596003432/

Now, less-related:

I feel like the take-home point is that, oddly enough, different people would have different motivations for wanting to dabble in linux. So I am going to argue in favor of the command-line because the argument that "new users have to feel like linux is usable, so show them the GUI" seems obvious to me.

I bet if you plucked a handful of undergraduates who were, say, actively involved in research - comp sci, biologists, chemists, etc - they might be much more likely to want to do command-line stuffs. Why? Because research-people do a lot of number crunching, statistical stuff, and LaTeX. Research-people (undergraduates!) might be more likely to be the types of folks who are motivated to be Power Users, always wanting to learn more about how the next "lower level" works. Who knows.

But there is definitely a  market for command-line power, and treating new users as people who only want "teh shinyz" seems unfair to the intelligence of new users and inadequate to show that Linux is /better/. A good number of sensible folk aren't really interested in a spinning cube, and honestly, most of us stop running desktop effects after the first week. Linux doesn't really do a better job letting me check my Facebook anyway - firefox, thunderbird, and pidgin work just as well on Windows.

I think that one problem is that E115 is just not taught very well. How about making that a LUG  seminar: "E115: The stuff your TA didn't want you to know" and do a correct job of introducing Linux to beginners?

Or possibly a similar concept for desktop-related features. Or - gasp - teaching both!

/flame,

Jay

Brian Cottingham wrote:

That's definitely a fair point, and I can agree that a pretty, shiny, slick
interface is very important in convincing people to make regular use of
Linux.

We are drifting a bit from Jack's original request, though, which was for
material to train sysadmins. If a sysadmin can't work with the command line,
he doesn't deserve to be a sysadmin.

Thinking back on when I was a sysadmin-in-training, I don't think I had any
reading materiel besides a book on Vi. What really helped me was a patient
and helpful mentor (an approach that doesn't scale very well). Perhaps the
best approach to train the new sysadmins would be to set them to work
improving existing shell scripts. Having to learn all of the common commands
in Bash for more than just listing a directory was immensely helpful in
preparing me to be a sysadmin.

-Brian


On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 6:10 PM, Daniel Marcus < danielm.nc @ gmail.com > wrote:

I've seen that, but remember, these aren't newbies. They are peers who
already have an idea of what a computer is, and what they want to use it
for. If an operating system can't give them a nice easy point-and-click way
of checking their eMail and Facebook, they're just NOT interested. I've met
engineering students who when I mention Linux, they were like "oh, we did
that in e115. So you do everything like THAT?" Once, I explain to them that
Linux has a nice friendly interface for things like checking on their
MySpace, they're much more interested in what it is.

Positively,
Daniel S. Marcus
Omni Impact Small Business Services
Phone: (XXX) 926 9624
Business: daniel@omniimpact.[redacted]
Personal: daniel@d-site.[redacted]
Website: http://omniimpact.com


On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 6:00 PM, Brian Cottingham < spiffytech@gmail.[redacted] >wrote:

I disagree- the command line is not necessarily a poor choice for an
introduction to Linux, it's just tricky to introduce properly. See this
account of an instructor who introduced his students to the command line
with great success:
http://www.osnews.com/story/6282/The_Command_Line_-_The_Best_Newbie_Interface_/page1/

-Brian



On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 5:41 PM, Daniel Marcus < danielm.nc @ gmail.com >wrote:

It's a terrible introduction.

I hate to say it, but if you want someone to consider Linux as a serious
option, they need to learn the basics of the GRAPHICAL INTERFACE first, for
the simple fact that if they think Linux is just this command-line thing,
they see no point in learning any more about it. After all, DOS could do
that two decades ago.

The command line is important to learn once you are ready to move past
point.... click.... move.... point.... click... but if we try to introduce
Linux by saying "hey, let's learn the command line..." it will hardly be
effective. If my teacher had tried to teach me Linux like that back in high
school, I would never be using it today. He was smart. He taught us DOS
first, requiring us all to make boot disks. Then, he gave me some Linux CD's
and said "it's free, think you can install it?".

Sorry... I'm tired... and that e115 curriculum has given Linux such a bad
name to so many people.


Positively,
Daniel S. Marcus
Omni Impact Small Business Services
Phone: (XXX) 926 9624
Business: daniel@omniimpact.[redacted]
Personal: daniel@d-site.[redacted]
Website: http://omniimpact.com



On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Ed Anderson < nilbus@gmail.[redacted] > wrote:

http://courses.ncsu.edu/e115
Home page




On Aug 31, 2009, at 3:24 PM, Alexander Ray < alexjray.ncsu@gmail.[redacted] >
wrote:

Is the E 115 handbook online?  (As engineering students) I think that

was *supposed* to be our introduction.  It may have been a bit lacking
though...
~AlexR

2009/8/10 Jack Neely < jjneely@ncsu.[redacted] >:

Folks,

I'm trying to pull together some online HOWTOs and articles as well as
relevant books to help system admins get up and running with
Linux/UNIX.

I always have requests for this kind of info, especially stuff for
folks
that have no un*x experience.  So this needs to start off at basic
terminal commands.  Below is what I whipped up on the spur of the
moment.  I thought it would be a good discussion topic and that you
folks might know of some good articles/books that I should include.

I plan on getting this up on the CLS Wiki at some point as well.

Jack

----- Forwarded message from Jack Neely < jjneely@ncsu.[redacted] > -----

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 17:04:47 -0400
From: Jack Neely < jjneely@ncsu.[redacted] >
To:
Subject: Linux/UNIX Intro Material

Guys,

I have some pointers to some various things that might help you guys
get
started in the Linux/UNIX world:

Intro to Linux:
http://tldp.org/LDP/intro-linux/html/index.html

Linux Systems Administrator's Guide:
http://tldp.org/LDP/sag/html/index.html

Red Hat's Intro to System Administration:

http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/en-US/Introduction_To_System_Administration_/

Books:

Linux in a Nutshell:

http://www.amazon.com/Linux-Nutshell-5th-Ellen-Siever/dp/0596009305/ref=ed_oe_p

Linux Administration Handbook: (I have this in my office.)

http://www.amazon.com/Linux-Administration-Handbook-2nd-Nemeth/dp/0131480049/ref=pd_sim_b_12

Practice of System and Network Administration (I have this as well,
although its mostly theory):

http://www.amazon.com/Practice-System-Network-Administration-2nd/dp/0321492668/ref=pd_sim_b_2

HTH,
Jack Neely
--
Jack Neely < jjneely@ncsu.[redacted] >
Linux Czar, OIT Campus Linux Services
Office of Information Technology, NC State University
GPG Fingerprint: 1917 5AC1 E828 9337 7AA4  EA6B 213B 765F 3B6A 5B89

----- End forwarded message -----

--
Jack Neely < jjneely@ncsu.[redacted] >
Linux Czar, OIT Campus Linux Services
Office of Information Technology, NC State University
GPG Fingerprint: 1917 5AC1 E828 9337 7AA4  EA6B 213B 765F 3B6A 5B89