Re: LUG: Linux/UNIX Intro Material - Mon, 31 Aug 2009 19:11:56 -0400

Subject : Re: LUG: Linux/UNIX Intro Material

From : Jay Goel <jpgoel@ncsu.[redacted]>

Date : Mon, 31 Aug 2009 19:11:56 -0400

To answer Jack's question, this is the first book I used (read from
chapter 1, etc) to really get a feel for Linux, how file perms worked,
different sysadmin tasks, etc. Essential System Administration.
http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596003432/

Now, less-related:

I feel like the take-home point is that, oddly enough, different people
would have different motivations for wanting to dabble in linux. So I am
going to argue in favor of the command-line because the argument that
"new users have to feel like linux is usable, so show them the GUI"
seems obvious to me.

I bet if you plucked a handful of undergraduates who were, say, actively
involved in research - comp sci, biologists, chemists, etc - they might
be much more likely to want to do command-line stuffs. Why? Because
research-people do a lot of number crunching, statistical stuff, and
LaTeX. Research-people (undergraduates!) might be more likely to be the
types of folks who are motivated to be Power Users, always wanting to
learn more about how the next "lower level" works. Who knows.

But there is definitely a market for command-line power, and treating
new users as people who only want "teh shinyz" seems unfair to the
intelligence of new users and inadequate to show that Linux is /better/.
A good number of sensible folk aren't really interested in a spinning
cube, and honestly, most of us stop running desktop effects after the
first week. Linux doesn't really do a better job letting me check my
Facebook anyway - firefox, thunderbird, and pidgin work just as well on
Windows.

I think that one problem is that E115 is just not taught very well. How
about making that a LUG seminar: "E115: The stuff your TA didn't want
you to know" and do a correct job of introducing Linux to beginners?

Or possibly a similar concept for desktop-related features. Or - gasp -
teaching both!

/flame,

Jay

Brian Cottingham wrote:
> That's definitely a fair point, and I can agree that a pretty, shiny, slick
> interface is very important in convincing people to make regular use of
> Linux.
>
> We are drifting a bit from Jack's original request, though, which was for
> material to train sysadmins. If a sysadmin can't work with the command line,
> he doesn't deserve to be a sysadmin.
>
> Thinking back on when I was a sysadmin-in-training, I don't think I had any
> reading materiel besides a book on Vi. What really helped me was a patient
> and helpful mentor (an approach that doesn't scale very well). Perhaps the
> best approach to train the new sysadmins would be to set them to work
> improving existing shell scripts. Having to learn all of the common commands
> in Bash for more than just listing a directory was immensely helpful in
> preparing me to be a sysadmin.
>
> -Brian
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 6:10 PM, Daniel Marcus <danielm.nc@gmail.[redacted]> wrote:
>
>> I've seen that, but remember, these aren't newbies. They are peers who
>> already have an idea of what a computer is, and what they want to use it
>> for. If an operating system can't give them a nice easy point-and-click way
>> of checking their eMail and Facebook, they're just NOT interested. I've met
>> engineering students who when I mention Linux, they were like "oh, we did
>> that in e115. So you do everything like THAT?" Once, I explain to them that
>> Linux has a nice friendly interface for things like checking on their
>> MySpace, they're much more interested in what it is.
>>
>> Positively,
>> Daniel S. Marcus
>> Omni Impact Small Business Services
>> Phone: (XXX) 926 9624
>> Business: daniel@omniimpact.[redacted]
>> Personal: daniel@d-site.[redacted]
>> Website: http://omniimpact.com
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 6:00 PM, Brian Cottingham <spiffytech@gmail.[redacted]>wrote:
>>
>>> I disagree- the command line is not necessarily a poor choice for an
>>> introduction to Linux, it's just tricky to introduce properly. See this
>>> account of an instructor who introduced his students to the command line
>>> with great success:
>>> http://www.osnews.com/story/6282/The_Command_Line_-_The_Best_Newbie_Interface_/page1/
>>>
>>> -Brian
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 5:41 PM, Daniel Marcus <danielm.nc@gmail.[redacted]>wrote:
>>>
>>>> It's a terrible introduction.
>>>>
>>>> I hate to say it, but if you want someone to consider Linux as a serious
>>>> option, they need to learn the basics of the GRAPHICAL INTERFACE first, for
>>>> the simple fact that if they think Linux is just this command-line thing,
>>>> they see no point in learning any more about it. After all, DOS could do
>>>> that two decades ago.
>>>>
>>>> The command line is important to learn once you are ready to move past
>>>> point.... click.... move.... point.... click... but if we try to introduce
>>>> Linux by saying "hey, let's learn the command line..." it will hardly be
>>>> effective. If my teacher had tried to teach me Linux like that back in high
>>>> school, I would never be using it today. He was smart. He taught us DOS
>>>> first, requiring us all to make boot disks. Then, he gave me some Linux CD's
>>>> and said "it's free, think you can install it?".
>>>>
>>>> Sorry... I'm tired... and that e115 curriculum has given Linux such a bad
>>>> name to so many people.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Positively,
>>>> Daniel S. Marcus
>>>> Omni Impact Small Business Services
>>>> Phone: (XXX) 926 9624
>>>> Business: daniel@omniimpact.[redacted]
>>>> Personal: daniel@d-site.[redacted]
>>>> Website: http://omniimpact.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Ed Anderson <nilbus@gmail.[redacted]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> http://courses.ncsu.edu/e115
>>>>> Home page
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Aug 31, 2009, at 3:24 PM, Alexander Ray <alexjray.ncsu@gmail.[redacted]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Is the E 115 handbook online? (As engineering students) I think that
>>>>>> was *supposed* to be our introduction. It may have been a bit lacking
>>>>>> though...
>>>>>> ~AlexR
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2009/8/10 Jack Neely <jjneely@ncsu.[redacted]>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Folks,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm trying to pull together some online HOWTOs and articles as well as
>>>>>>> relevant books to help system admins get up and running with
>>>>>>> Linux/UNIX.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I always have requests for this kind of info, especially stuff for
>>>>>>> folks
>>>>>>> that have no un*x experience. So this needs to start off at basic
>>>>>>> terminal commands. Below is what I whipped up on the spur of the
>>>>>>> moment. I thought it would be a good discussion topic and that you
>>>>>>> folks might know of some good articles/books that I should include.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I plan on getting this up on the CLS Wiki at some point as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jack
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Forwarded message from Jack Neely <jjneely@ncsu.[redacted]> -----
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 17:04:47 -0400
>>>>>>> From: Jack Neely <jjneely@ncsu.[redacted]>
>>>>>>> To:
>>>>>>> Subject: Linux/UNIX Intro Material
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Guys,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have some pointers to some various things that might help you guys
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>> started in the Linux/UNIX world:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Intro to Linux:
>>>>>>> http://tldp.org/LDP/intro-linux/html/index.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Linux Systems Administrator's Guide:
>>>>>>> http://tldp.org/LDP/sag/html/index.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Red Hat's Intro to System Administration:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/en-US/Introduction_To_System_Administration_/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Books:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Linux in a Nutshell:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.amazon.com/Linux-Nutshell-5th-Ellen-Siever/dp/0596009305/ref=ed_oe_p
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Linux Administration Handbook: (I have this in my office.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.amazon.com/Linux-Administration-Handbook-2nd-Nemeth/dp/0131480049/ref=pd_sim_b_12
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Practice of System and Network Administration (I have this as well,
>>>>>>> although its mostly theory):
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.amazon.com/Practice-System-Network-Administration-2nd/dp/0321492668/ref=pd_sim_b_2
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> HTH,
>>>>>>> Jack Neely
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Jack Neely <jjneely@ncsu.[redacted]>
>>>>>>> Linux Czar, OIT Campus Linux Services
>>>>>>> Office of Information Technology, NC State University
>>>>>>> GPG Fingerprint: 1917 5AC1 E828 9337 7AA4 EA6B 213B 765F 3B6A 5B89
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- End forwarded message -----
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Jack Neely <jjneely@ncsu.[redacted]>
>>>>>>> Linux Czar, OIT Campus Linux Services
>>>>>>> Office of Information Technology, NC State University
>>>>>>> GPG Fingerprint: 1917 5AC1 E828 9337 7AA4 EA6B 213B 765F 3B6A 5B89
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>

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